Interview with Huang Gongyu, founder of Paradigm: Details of Zhang Yiming in the early stages, Sequoia experience, Crypto technology trends

Author:MD , Bright Company

Recently, Patrick O'Shaughnessy, a well-known investment podcast Invest Like the Best anchor , conducted an in-depth interview with Matt Huang (Huang Gongyu), a co-founder of the crypto-field investment institution Paradigm . Huang Gongyu had previously worked as a partner at Sequoia Capital in the United States. Currently, Paradigm has a management scale of over US$ 12 billion. In 2018 , Huang Gongyu founded Paradigm with Coinbase co-founder Fred Ehrsam .

In the interview, Huang Gongyu also recalled his experience of investing in ByteDance in 2012.

At that time, in his opinion, Silicon Valley had not had much information gap; in terms of C-end applications, it had become very " predictable " for interesting work and considerable returns . A company he had previously founded was sold to Twitter , and while on vacation, he traveled to Beijing with the idea of ​​starting a Chinese technology company and visited six founders. One of them was Zhang Yiming. Zhang Yiming was doing today 's headlines at that time, but from Huang Gongyu's perspective, the possibility of this path being successful is very small (the same type of projects in the United States ended in failure).

Zhang Yiming talks to Huang Gongyu through translation, but Huang Gongyu is attracted by the founder's " nonverbal clues " - his gestures, expressions and intensity depict a picture that he can understand without language.

During the communication process, Zhang Yiming left a very deep impression on Huang Gongyu. In the interview, Huang Gongyu said: " I remember there was a very deep feeling at that time. He was an extremely capable and focused person. He was also very balanced and would not be crazy enough to self-destruct, but he was extremely aggressive and had the ambition to conquer the world. I think this is a rare combination. "

When he left ByteDance 's newly started apartment (probably Huaqing Jiayuan), he thought: " I have to find a way to support this person. "

Soon, Huang Gongyu wrote a check to ByteDance at a valuation of US$20-30 million, which was his largest personal investment at the time. With ByteDance now worth $200-300 billion, his investment has grown about 10,000 times, and he still holds most of the shares, admitting that " it is probably the best investment I have ever made . "

Huang Gongyu's educational experience was also influenced by East Asian families and once wanted to complete his doctoral degree at MIT. His father, Huang Qifu, was a well-known financial economist and was the head of LTCM's Asia Office; his mother was a computer science professor.

The following is the main text of the interview compiled by "Bright Company" (with abridged)

Patrick=Patrick O 'Shaughnessy Invest Like the Best Anchor, Postive sum CEO

Matt=Matt Huang Gongyu, co-founder of Paradigm and former partner of Sequoia Capital

Patrick : Today’s guest is Matt Huang , co -founder of Paradigm , a leading Crypto investment company that manages over $ 12 billion in assets. In 2018 , Matt founded Paradigm with Coinbase co-founder Fred Ehrsam . Prior to that, Matt was a partner at Sequoia Capital, where he led many of the company's Crypto investments. Michael Moritz has widely reported that Matt is the only regrettable loss in Sequoia's history.

In our conversation, Matt shares his navigation framework in the often-incomprehensible cutting-edge field of Crypto , how his early investment in ByteDance — now 10,000 times the return of his initial investment — shapes his approach to identifying outstanding founders, and why he is so firmly convinced of the long-term potential of Crypto technology. His company Paradigm not only invests in many industry-leading companies, but also builds open source tools that are widely used by the entire Crypto world.

Matt has a rare IQ and EQ that allows him to understand technical complexity, gather unique talents, and deal with well-known volatility in Crypto . Whether you are interested or skeptical about Crypto , I think his views are valuable.

01 Early life, education and shaping

Patrick : If you divide your life into early chapters, say, until you become a professional, what are those chapters? What happened in these chapters? Why do you divide it like this?

Matt : Let me think about it. I want to say there is a chapter in childhood, like many people, my main goal is to get into college. Looking back now, it makes me feel a little frustrated for many reasons and I don’t want my kids to do the same in the future. But this is a very primitive goal in my life. My parents are both PhDs and professors, so education is the North Star of our family.

Patrick : Guiding Principles.

Matt : Yes. I'm lucky that they are relatively enlightened if they look at the stereotypical Asian parenting style. So they were very supportive of me for the second half of my life, when I took the risk and decided not to go that path.

But no matter what, this is the first stage. The second stage may be a period of exploration in college, and naturally figure out what to do next. The third phase is to start a failed startup. The fourth stage is learning to become an investor. I think I am now in the fifth stage, which is to start Paradigm and find ways to express myself.

Patrick : When did you first realize this family guiding principle?

Matt : This is only realized when you look back afterwards. It was as natural as water at that time. It's a fun thing, and I think back to family gatherings where parents invite their friends or introduce people they know, almost every time they say what college they graduate from as if they are referring to titles. So from a very young age, I deeply instilled with the idea that this (education) is what defines a person's value. I think this is totally wrong, but that's what drove me forward in the first place.

Patrick : Did you have a good time in college?

Matt : Yes, it was actually quite a pleasant time.

Patrick : Why?

Matt : I went to MIT and it was a super special place. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was probably one of the most concentrated places on Earth with strange crowds. I think there are few such centers, I think Silicon Valley is one, and Crypto field is one, but they are relatively rare, and I think there will be a lot of creative and interesting fringe activities coming from these places.

I also met my wife here, which I didn’t realize at the time, but now watching some of my friends struggle in their life after college, I don’t envy the environment they are in.

Patrick : What was your most memorable day at MIT besides meeting your wife?

Matt : Well, the most memorable thing ... Actually, this continues to the next chapter. Startups are very popular now, but around 2008 , they were relatively new. Maybe if you go to Stanford, this may be the default choice for many people to pay attention to, but at MIT, most people take other typical routes — finance, consulting, high-frequency trading.

I remember having a close friend from my first grade who told me he was dropping out of school and joining a San Francisco startup called Dropbox. He might be the sixth or seventh employee there. This broke my worldview at that time. Given my growing up background and the influence of my parents, this concept is very strong - than a person has to go to a good university, but it also has to graduate and maybe even a PhD, but dropping out seems crazy.

However, this is a person I respect very much, and I think he is very capable, not the kind of person who fails academically or pursues completely unrealistic things (such as being an actor). This is a real turning point because it makes me think about what kind of thinking chains will allow a capable person to make such a choice. This led me to discover Paul Graham 's article and Y Combinator and start to learn about the entire Silicon Valley ecosystem.

Patrick : I remember reading Paul Graham ’s article. These articles or these windows can open doors to possibilities for you. Can you tell me in detail what you think next and what you are actually doing?

Matt : Speaking of which, this is a very leverage behavior. Paul Graham wrote some text on the website, which I think has changed the world a lot, opened up a universe for nerds and taught them how to start a company. In a previous world, they would be completely subject to CEOs with MBA degrees . So, I think it's a very interesting topic.

But for me, this has a big impact because the gains of metacognition are very actionable. I was in a state of mind at the time: I was going to MIT, and my parents wanted me to study for my Ph.D. I need to think about what major I want to study and where to apply. I'm not sure what I should do in the summer to start contributing to research.

Not even sure if this is something I should optimize. One thing that makes me feel very liberated in Paul Graham’s article is that you don’t need to ask others for permission because all PhD programs are the case. You can figure out what you want to do by yourself and then go straight to it. There is a popular meme now , which means you can do things directly. I think it's a cliché, but I think it has deep truths.

I found it very illuminating and it reshapes my worldview of what I want to do. I major in applied mathematics. I have been making websites since I was a kid and have fiddled with Photoshop . Many children have done these things. But I didn't really learn how to program or computer science.

I immediately turned to that time – a lot of computer science courses actually counted in mathematics as well. So from that point on, I started to learn how to build things. Then my roommate and I started doing something that ultimately led to our entrepreneurship.

02 The growth gift of a startup

Patrick : Tell the story of a failed startup. This is the only way to grow.

Matt : We applied for Y Combinator twice , but the first time we were not selected. I remember clearly that we flew to California for an interview, we had an interview with Paul Graham ( PG ) and he called us that night. Maybe they still do this and will reply that day. He said: " We like you very much, but we are very dissatisfied with your ideas. Can you come back again? Let's brainstorm and try to come up with something for you to do. "

We did this, but still didn't come up with something that interests them. Then I think about a week later, he published a paper about " Why young people have bad ideas " .

Patrick : You guys are very enlightening (laughs).

Matt : Yes, that's right. So I think we are indeed trapped in common traps that young entrepreneurs have. You overestimate the problems you encountered in college. Many young people will be attracted by the problems they encountered in college, but college students do not represent ordinary consumers well.

From there, six months later, we continue to build and develop things. Ultimately, in the next batch, we already have a prototype with users … but even so, it’s still a bad idea. If you remember that period, it was the first time streaming content went live. For example, Netflix and Hulu .

Patrick : What year was that?

Matt : This is 2010. So we raised some angel rounds and seed money at Y Combinator and continued to build it, but in the end it didn't grow the way we wanted it to be. So we started looking for opportunities to be acquired and eventually acquired by Twitter . This is also an interesting chapter in itself.

Patrick : What did you learn during the merger and acquisition process?

Matt : During that period, they acquired not business, but talent. We went to interview Airbnb and Palantir . I ended up choosing Twitter , which is probably the worst-run of the three companies.

What I want to say is that from a failed or failed startup, I don’t think there is much substantial to learn, but I think there are some lessons to learn. As a parent, I have definitely experienced this more than before. There are some things you have to experience before you can learn. There are so many things you can read, you can think you understand them, but the real epiphany doesn 't happen until you are in.

I think the ambiguity of creating new things from scratch and the loneliness of the founders, and the empathy of all founders, which are probably the main gains I got from that experience. I think this is the biggest help that experience has brought me.

Patrick : If I could go back to that period, back to the last day of that chapter, and ask you: "Matt , what is your worldview? What do you think you would say? "

Matt : Well, I know I want to work in technology and build things. I'm really not sure if Silicon Valley is the ideal place to do this. This is actually related to ... I have briefly considered the past China entrepreneurship. Because this is 2012 . At the time, everyone in Silicon Valley felt that there was a little saturation there. Obviously this is not the case, but the iPhone was released in 2007 and many mobile applications have been developed.

I think 2012 is the year when Instacart and Snapchat were founded. These may be the last batch of large-scale consumer outcomes dominated by mobile. This is the area of ​​interest to me. Enterprise-grade applications are very interesting to some people, but not to me.

Therefore, China seems to be a field that can achieve this compound annual growth rate. I thought, hey, I 'm Chinese American, maybe I'll have some advantages there. When I went there, I realized, no, I am not really Chinese. This is a completely different thing. But this also ultimately led to investment in ByteDance , which we can discuss in detail. But when I came back again, I felt there was potential for many decades of compound growth opportunities there, and the Crypto field was one such area.

**03 Talk about early investments byteDance and Zhang Yiming: Very

focused, aggressive, ambitious, and will not lose control**

Patrick : There is a picture in my mind, like we're making a movie about you. The opening scene is when you boarded a plane to China during that trip in 2012. This will be the opening shot. Can we do this in audio? Can you tell me as much detail as possible about that critical trip, every detail you can recall?

Matt : I will do my best. If you think back to 2012 , every American venture capitalist and company was trying to enter China. China is entering Hollywood. Globalization is at the forefront. I think maybe there is where I should go.

I took a week off from Twitter. I have some common friends who know people in venture capital or tech in China. So they arranged some meetings for me. So, I landed in Beijing. I've been there before, and during my summer break at MIT, I went there to learn languages. But even in that short six years, the entire city has changed dramatically. As soon as you land, you will find that this is a huge city, which is gray. But I still remember feeling this energy on the ground, a culture that is experiencing rapid growth. In Silicon Valley at that time, despite its passion for startups, its culture was already somewhat complacent in some aspects.

This is very inspiring. So, I went from one meeting to another, without any intention of investing, just trying to learn. I met Dropbox in China , and X and Y in China .

I remember coming to ByteDance, which is an apartment building divided into two apartments. I brought an interpreter. We took the elevator up and the floor was very simple. I was pulled into a small kitchen and you imagine a refrigerator that looked very old and could be dirty inside. There is also a very simple IKEA-style kitchen table with some stools. I just sat there and talked to Translator and Yiming, the founder of ByteDance .

There was a very interesting thing, we had a mutual friend, Graham Duncan , who talked about interviewing, referrals and observing people. Looking back, this was a very unique experience. I might not understand what he meant when he spoke, and then the translator would translate it to me so that I could understand it. But as he speaks, I can observe his nonverbal information with all my heart.

I remember there was a very profound feeling at that time, that this was an extremely capable and very focused person, who was also very balanced, not crazy enough to self-destruct, but extremely aggressive, with the ambition to conquer the world. I think this is a rare combination. I don't like the idea either, it's a personal news app (i.e. Toutiao). This was before TikTok or TikTok came out, so at the time their main business and the idea of ​​building a company was a personalized news app.

I remember that this idea was not successful in the United States at that time, and many people tried it. I now have some hindsight on why it will succeed in China, but I didn't like the idea at the time. But since that meeting, I felt, my goodness, I have to find a way to support this person.

Patrick : How did you do it? Did you take out $20,000 and say, " Let me invest in your company? " Just like, what are the actual conversations and operations?

Matt : After we left that trip, I talked with some other investors who also introduced us to. What I gained from that trip was that he was that person. Then, that group basically begged existing venture capitalists to find ways to get us involved. They are very kind.

Patrick : What is your valuation when you invest?

Matt : There are some different types of shares, but it's around $20 million to $ 30 million.

Patrick : OK, what started to gather and get you into the investor’s brain and investment chapters? Is there a feeling, like: " Wow, this is something I want to do repeatedly? " What has happened to you?

Matt : I think in that stage of life he was probably the most impressive person I’ve ever met — you must have gone through many times — a very impressive person I really spent time with. I've read a lot of stories about impressive people, which is very inspiring and a little addictive. Now as a venture capitalist, we basically do this all day long.

Patrick : So, back in the past, you mentioned his two traits, he was neither out of control, he was very controllable, but bold and aggressive. Maybe let me talk about it in detail. If it weren't for these two traits, try to describe the meeting in more detail. What you see and what you feel.

Matt : He has a very clear understanding of what he is going to build and why. I recently reread Elon Musk 's Tesla Master Plan for 2006. If you read that document, it has an extremely clear description of business strategy. Zhang Yiming also has such a clear understanding of this personalized news idea - in fact, personalized news underestimates it .

I think what he sees is what it ends up being, the market for global attention and media. Just like before the algorithm appears, you might use social networks to get information. Before the social networks came along, you used newspaper editors to do this. But this is the high-frequency trading version of the media market, and he saw it at that time.

It took me a little longer to fully understand this. But with his clarity and radical ambitions, I think from day one, he has been very focused on building an international business. At that time, every Chinese company had a Chinese business, even Tencent and Alibaba. Therefore, he actually believed that he could do this, which was very bold.

Patrick : I assume you have been holding this investment for a long time. What I want to know is whether you still hold it. We can also discuss this issue from the perspective of Crypto currency. Many of my mutual friends are early investors in Bitcoin. One noteworthy phenomenon is that they are rich from the beginning, which makes them easier to hold.

And those investors who have achieved great success for the first time, if they get 100 times the return, they may sell because they have made a lot of money. But then, this may make them miss out on bigger gains because they are not holding for longer. So, do you still hold it? If so, what is it like to hold an investment like this that is worth much more than you might have expected of it at first?

Matt : I hold most of it. This is a very strange situation because it is illiquid most of the time. So this is much easier compared to Crypto currency. I think when a sound secondary market appears and it is possible to sell, I don 't know that I'm not comparing with the original cost. At that time, it was always possible to become China 's largest company.

As an investor, this will certainly confuse you because it is probably the best investment I have ever been involved in.

Patrick : What is the return on investment?

Matt : I haven't calculated the specific numbers after adjustment and dilution in my mind, but the current trading price in the old stock market is between $ 200 billion and $ 300 billion. The simple calculation is that this is a 10,000- fold return, assuming it is a 5,000- fold return ...

Patrick : Very good.

Matt : If a U.S. company had these numbers, it would be worth $1 trillion to $ 2 trillion. So it may grow 10 times more.

Patrick : Yes. Is it weird to know that this is probably the best investment you have ever made?

Matt : Yes, that's weird. I find that I'm increasingly accepting this reality, but let 's not pretend it's some great skill. I think I have some intuition and it's a good investment. But like many early stage investments, it's just an opportunity to say " yes " .

Patrick : Yes, what I want to know is, if I arranged my five most successful investments from 1 to 5 , how many times did they share that kind of " energy trait " you described ? Maybe list what are they?

Matt : Yes, I think that's the case with all investments except Crypto currency investment.

Patrick : Of course.

Matt : I think there, there are analogies of the “ energy characteristics ” of the community or meme .

Patrick : Yes. Give me a feeling. What do you think are the other four most important investments?

Matt : So I don't have a spreadsheet. Somehow, I didn't follow this.

Patrick : You can say it based on your feelings.

Matt : Yes, that's right. If I had to guess, I would say it was ByteDance, Bitcoin, Ethereum. Are these personal or fund-related?

Patrick : There are both.

Matt : I should be responsible for Uniswap, which we can discuss in detail later. There are also some common technology investments, such as Instacart , for example, I participated in the seed round.

04 Lessons learned from the high demands of Sequoia Capital

Patrick : OK, so let's go into the pure investor chapter, especially Sequoia Capital. So how did you get to Sequoia Capital? This is a transitional story. Then I have a lot of questions about formative experiences there .

Matt : So I was sitting on Twitter and a random email popped up in my inbox, from a recruiter, about a job opening at Sequoia Capital. At the time I had no real ambition or intention to become an investor or venture capitalist. So I initially thought this email was a wrong spam. How could they email me? They won't go to people who might enter the investment world, like bankers or similar people, who might enter the investment world.

I didn’t really understand the diverse backgrounds that entered this field at the time. But I was attracted and finally got on the phone with Pat Grady, I think you know him. When he introduced me to Sequoia Capital, I began to have a great interest in it. I 've met more and more team members. I still think it is one of the highest quality teams and cultures I've ever experienced.

Again, I'm interested in investing, but I'm not sure if I want to do it, but I decided to join almost entirely based on the strength of the team.

Patrick : Looking back, how long have you been there?

Matt : Four and a half years.

Patrick : What changes have happened in these four and a half years? If I talk to you on the first and last day, what is the " therapeutic effect " of Sequoia Capital for you ?

Matt : This is definitely very profound. I think the biggest thing is probably exposure to high demands. This is probably the most demanding place I 've ever experienced, including the startups I've been involved in, and Paradigm . They maintain extremely high standards of ability. I think having legendary history like Apple, Google, and Cisco helps that.

Patrick : When you walk in, that wall impresses people. Those sign walls are quite impressive.

Matt : Yes, those posters and S-1 files. The 20% figure on Nasdaq listed companies is shocking. So I think that helps … When your track record includes that, even something that others think is a huge success is considered a piece of cake. So there are many days when investment results of hundreds of millions of dollars are seen as mediocre success.

I remember the day I joined, the day when the WhatsApp acquisition was announced, there was a very awkward champagne celebration in the lobby. They called out everyone, glasses everywhere, everyone raised their glasses but no one drank them. Five minutes later, everyone returned to their desk to continue working. So it's not a culture that is often celebrated.

But in general, high requirements - not just about the company or investment level, but about the personal taste and the individual's requirements for themselves. They strive to operate at such a high level, and I think Tyler Cowen mentioned on his blog that one of the free lunches is to raise the ambitions of those around you. I think a demanding culture is this way of putting surplus into the world. If you expose a person to this culture, you can permanently change their standards for everything.

Patrick : Is there a personal story that makes you feel this impact? Is it the team or a particular person that makes you feel like: " Oh my goodness, I have to do better than I am now. "

Matt : This question is a bit negative, that is, you don't do well, you need to do better. There is another version that is positive, that is, you are excellent and we trust you. I would say that Sequoia Capital – Doug Leone in particular – has had a big impact on me.

I think the first investment I brought to the company was when I worked with him. In the process, watching him work with the team and then having him verify my view on investment and what actions we should do with the company is an experience of increasing ambition and confidence.

But many high requirements are self-evident. They are habits and rituals that you can see that everyone embodies, like a $100 million investment result. I thought everyone would celebrate. Instead, everyone is saying: " This company is a bit of a waste of time. Why did it take us six years to get this mediocre result? " This culture will influence you subtly.

Patrick : How different do you do as an investor when you set your goal as the next Apple, rather than a billion dollar company that we will soon forget?

Matt : In some ways, it’s daunting because the standards are too high, but in some ways it’s also a relief because as an investor, the temptation to pursue “ good ” rather than “ great ” is very large at every level — whether it’s the way you spend your time, or actually investing, the quality of the company or the quality of the founder — is very large. So unless you have very high standards, you may be wasting a lot of time chasing things that won't make a difference in the end.

Patrick : There are a lot of incredible investors out there, and when you're there, of course, many of them are still there now. They are very different from each other, and it will be a big topic for us, just like the idea of ​​this " outlier collection " and I think you're doing a really good job at Paradigm . What do you think is the key to creating a very different and very heterogeneous population from each other while ensuring they work together well?

Matt : Sequoia Capital has many people with different personalities, but there are also some impressive coherence in key dimensions. Another revelation from my previous experience with Sequoia Capital was that for the first time I realized that there were many roads to greatness, no matter what you call it. Because at Sequoia Capital, there are many great people that are incredible if you only look at their track record or what they have achieved. However, their styles are very different.

It was a liberation for me and I realized that I could find my way to do it the way I wanted. This is actually a very interesting thing and worth pursuing. You can see this from athletes or from various performers. Sometimes you can read from their interviews that they realize that they don’t need to follow some existing mentor or some orthodox dogma, but can figure it out for themselves, and this ends up being their great catalyst.

05 Bitcoin application curve

Patrick : I want to go back to two key parts of the timeline. The first part is your initial exposure to Bitcoin and Crypto currency. Part 2, related, you decide to leave Sequoia Capital and start Paradigm . Maybe start with the first one. Similar to TikTok , how and when did you first encounter it? We just introduced the word “ readability ” , which will be an important topic we will explore throughout the discussion. Let's go back to the past. Regarding Bitcoin, what is readable and what is unreadable? What did you look like when you first saw it? What did you look like when you first saw it? Just like, tell us.

Matt : So I first came into contact with Bitcoin when it was just launched …

Patrick : 2009?

Matt : 2010. white paper. I was still in college at the time and I internalized it into a very beautiful concept. It brings together the intersections between computer science and mathematics, economics, game theory, currency history and other fields. It allowed me to delve into some related concepts.

Because if you look at the quotes in the Bitcoin white paper, people have been thinking about this for a long time. It cites a lot of early work. So it's very interesting. I didn't have funds at the time, and it didn't look like an investment, it was more like a toy.

The next time I came into contact with it was in 2013 , I think that was the first bitcoin bubble and I was involved. I think an important point about Bitcoin adoption is that you almost need to lose money or do stupid things on your first contact. Then I found out - it must be true for me - you gave it up and probably thought it was dead. Then when you see it come back again, you start to doubt because there are a lot of bubbles and tulip foam and stuff like that. But the tulips do not have multiple consecutive foam cycles.

Patrick : They don't appear repeatedly, yes.

Matt : Beanie Babies (Note: Bear Asset Bubble, or Doudou Babies Bubble) also has no second, third and fourth cycles.

Patrick : This is a key point.

Matt : And there is a time delay adoption curve if you consider Bitcoin adoption based on exposure to Bitcoin. So 2013 was the first cycle for me. I don't think I was a professional investor at the time. I'm doing day trading on my Coinbase account and I buy it at $ 200 or $ 300 and it goes up to $ 1000 and then it falls back to $ 600 and then slowly starts to fall from there.

Actually, that's when I joined Sequoia Capital. So this is before I joined. I remember thinking at the time that this was a topic that I was very interested in. When I interviewed Sequoia Capital, they asked me to prepare a one-page report about the companies I think we should invest in.

I chose Coinbase , which had only seven employees at the time. This is before a16z investment, so there are only Union Square and Ribbit . I firmly believe this will be an interesting field and this company is probably the best in this field.

But after joining, and after that crash, I kind of stopped paying attention to it anymore. Bitcoin is just an asset, and there are companies that serve it, but it is not clear that it is a truly creative software platform. It wasn't until a few years later, when I saw the activity happening on Ethereum that I rejoined.

Patrick : So, when, assuming it was at Sequoia Capital, you first felt that I needed to place a bigger bet in this ecosystem that ultimately led you to start Paradigm with Fred ?

Matt : I no longer focus on Crypto currency. I still own some bitcoins, and I still follow some accounts that will post the price of bitcoins on Twitter. I think in those years they stopped posting prices, or maybe I missed that news.但当我再次看到价格上涨时，我开始注意到这些迹象，这个生态系统还活着。

然后我还注意到在以太坊上发生的活动。它不仅仅是一种像比特币这样的数字资产，实际上还有这些项目。比如Augur ，这是一个早期的预测市场。我想，好吧，这不仅仅是一种资产，它现在是一个创业平台。所以， 我开始在那里投入时间，红杉资本对此非常支持。我们代表红杉资本进行了一些有趣的与 Crypto 货币相关的投资。

而且，说实话，我认为红杉资本的伟大之处在于这种多代团队，对于任何给定的技术理念，有12 种观点，然后通过智力上的争论来寻找真相。而在Crypto 货币领域，这种争论是缺失的。

因此，我最终在公司之外寻找思想伙伴来测试我的想法，并从中学习。而Fred 是那些离开Coinbase 的人之一，他在2017 年初开始进行天使投资。我们一起看了很多项目，就在这个过程中，我发现，坐下来和他交谈，当他开始阐述他的想法时，我有一种强烈的感觉—— 这是一个我想以某种方式合作的人。我不知道，我肯定没有想过要创立一家公司，但也许我会投资他接下来要做的项目。就是从那里， Paradigm 的种子诞生了。

Patrick ： 人们经常提到你时会说，哦，是的， Matt 是离开红杉资本的合伙人，他们真的不想失去他。让我们来探讨一下。你告诉他们你要离开的时候是什么感觉？他们试图挽留你吗？这一切是怎么发生的？

Matt ： 首先，我不知道这是否属实。我知道这对我来说很难。我记得当我来到红杉资本，体验到这种文化时，所有的伟大个性，每个人追求的卓越标准—— 我想，哇。我可以在那里待很长时间。这不像是工作。这感觉像是一个我可以退休的地方。

然后最终，我对比特币着迷了。这就是简单的答案。我确实强烈地感觉到这将是未来几十年最重要的技术经济趋势之一，而且从金融自由、隐私和个体主权的角度来看，开发这项技术对人类非常重要。我第一次真正觉得这是一种使命感，要让这一切发生。所以从那里开始，从智力上来说，这是正确的选择。但在人际关系和个人层面上，这很难。

06 构建Paradigm 的愿景

Patrick ： 所以最后我们终于可以谈论Paradigm 和Crypto 货币，以及当今世界正在发生的一切。 Paradigm 今天是一个管理着超过100 亿美元资产的专注于Crypto 货币的资产管理公司。也许可以简单介绍一下，你如何看待Paradigm ，它是什么，以及你希望它成为什么，一个总体性的概述？

Matt ： 嗯，我们创立Paradigm 时的创始洞察力是， Fred 和我都坚信Crypto 货币将成为最重要的技术经济趋势之一。 我们相信，要投资于Crypto 货币，需要成为所谓的“Crypto 原生” 。我们努力去构建这样的环境。

我们并没有一个自上而下的计划。对我们来说，这意味着确保我们拥有能够应对不确定未来的合适团队。回到可读性和不可读性的问题。我认为Crypto 货币，即使在今天，但肯定在当时，是一个极其不可读的前沿领域。很难理解什么是有价值的，什么将是有价值的，如何区分噪音和信号。

这是一个深度技术领域，我们知道招聘来自中央选角的投资者是行不通的。我们很幸运，我们的第一批招聘倾向于让我们朝着更技术化的方向发展。我想说，今天，我认为推动Paradigm 的主要有两件事。第一，我们将我们的使命视为推进Crypto 货币的前沿。我们当然也关心投资回报，但我们并不是主要为此而优化。我认为如果我们推进了Crypto 货币的前沿，让Crypto 货币发挥作用，扩大蛋糕的规模。

Patrick ： 赚很多钱。

Matt ： 运气好一点。我认为我们也会获得良好的投资回报。但主要是第一件事，这是一组真正需要存在的技术。我们相信，很多价值也将被创造出来。

第二件事是， 我们试图构建一个体现 “ 建设者” 而非仅仅是“ 投资者” 的团队。部分原因是审美取向。 我想Fred 和我都喜欢做东西，早期团队的许多人也是如此。我们只是倾向于去思考，从技术或产品方面，前沿应该走向哪里。但部分原因也是，我们认为这是在该领域进行投资的最佳方式之一。

也许类比于生物技术，它是一个如此技术性的领域，你真的需要主题专家来理解正在发生的事情。这本身还不够，因为你还必须将其与商业意识结合起来。但我们认为，不仅仅将自己视为投资公司，而是作为一个建设产品和进行研究的地方，会有很多东西涌现出来。

Patrick ： Paradigm 的原始章节非常有趣，因为我认为你们筹集了数亿美元，并有效地将它们全部投入比特币。你可以讲讲那个故事，因为结果相当不错。

Matt ： 当你这样描述时，听起来很鲁莽。但我想说的是，我们的创始理念是创造一个非常灵活的工具—— 我们甚至不认为自己是风险资本家。我们想创造一个能够参与我们在Crypto 货币中看到的价值创造的工具，并为它做出贡献。而且，当时并不清楚这将采取什么形式。

在比特币的早期，总是存在一个问题， 是应该投资于比特币创业公司，还是直接购买比特币？我认为很多人都陷入了这个问题。正确的答案是两者都要做。 但对我们来说，能够参与从早期阶段投资、货币本身到代币化协议的整个堆栈是非常重要的。

Patrick ： 你们筹集了多少资金？最初的几个月行动是怎样的？

Matt ： 第一个基金是一个常青基金，可以持有上市公司、私人公司以及两者之间的所有东西。 我们筹集了 4 亿美元，这本身就是一个有趣的过程。 Crypto 货币在前一年有点热，所以它在每个人的雷达上。

Patrick ： 这是2018 年。

Matt ： 这是2018 年初。是的， 2018 年初。它仍然非常有争议，几乎在我们交谈的每一个地方，都有很多对比特币的怀疑者。但我们筹集了4 亿美元，于2018 年底启动，我们的计划是开始逐步进入我们最有信心的头寸，当时是比特币和以太坊。

Patrick ： 是的，为了让大家有个概念，当时比特币的价格大概是——3000 美元左右。

Matt ： 是的，大概在3000 到6000 美元之间。而以太坊是100 美元。然后在启动后的第一年，我们又筹集了大约3 亿到4 亿美元，总共大约7 亿到8 亿美元。然后我们在2021 年又筹集了一个风险基金。那个是25 亿美元，我们现在正在投资这个基金。然后我们在2024 年初，或者我猜是2024 年，又为我们的第二个风险基金筹集了8.5 亿美元的承诺。

Patrick ： 但还没有开始投资。

Matt ： 还没有开始投资。

Patrick ： 团队的情况如何？

Matt ： 我们有65 人，大部分在旧金山，一些在纽约，一些在华盛顿。政策团队在华盛顿。我们所说的“ 投资和研究团队” ，这 是核心团队，负责做出投资决策并试图弄清楚 Crypto 货币的未来，大约有10 或11 人。

Patrick ： 那个规模感觉对吗？我听到很多人说，当人数超过那个数字时，它就不再是一个团队，而更像是一个结构了。

Matt ： 你是说10 或11 人？

Patrick ： 是的， 10 或11 人。你能想象它有20 人吗？

Matt ： 嗯，我们在2021 年有20 人在那个团队。是的，事后来看，我认为这有点太大了。有很多种方法可以建立一个成功的投资团队。 我认为有些团队规模很大，但团队越大，一群人做出决策的动态肯定就会改变。我认为在 10 人或更少的情况下，仍然可能进行充分的接触式、相互的讨论并寻找真相。 房间越大，人们就越会自我意识，害怕说蠢话，或者挑战比他们更高级的人，或者类似的事情。

所以这对我们来说是有效的。这是一个多样化的人群。事实上，我认为团队中没有一个人会符合其他投资公司招聘的标准。不管怎样，每个人对Crypto 货币的未来都有独特的切入点。我们有工程师、研究人员、安全专家。

Patrick ： 如果我进来，坐下来，看看人们的肩膀，那些不是投资活动的建设者和研究活动，我会看到什么？

Matt ： 你很少会看到Excel 模型。更常见的是，几个人可能会在白板上讨论一些数学问题。你会看到Georgios 有三块屏幕， 200 个标签页，正在输入代码。我们所做的很多工作实际上是在我们认为对Crypto 货币很重要的协议和机制的细节中。我们之所以花时间在那里，是因为我们认为它们是巨大的杠杆点。

在开源方面， Georgios 所做的工作，这些代码可以在整个Crypto 货币领域使用。在机制方面， Dan Robinson 、 Dave White 和团队中的许多人，这些机制是协议的核心。 例如， Uniswap ，它为数千人、数百万人、数亿人、数万亿的交易量服务，所有这些都来自于一个数学公式。

在Crypto 货币中， 正确地获得机制的杠杆作用是巨大的。 我们认为这不仅适用于我们已经看到的东西，还会有一个新前沿需要发明。所以团队的大部分人都专注于这一点—— 这些机制最终会在产品中体现出来。

07 应对加密货币市场的波动性

Patrick ： 一个正在浮现的故事是，你是一个在波动性之上非常出色的人格类型。无论是团队、资产类别还是回报。你处于一个独特的结构中，这是一个长期的结构。但Crypto 货币的日常波动性完全疯狂。你能谈谈这种经历吗？

所以，就像你之前提到的数字一样。如果你只看两个时间点，筹集的资金和今天的资金。哇，太棒了。 12 倍或13 倍，或者一些荒谬的数字。

我对团队和表现的痛苦方面很感兴趣。所以这是一个超级波动的资产类别。你有一个高方差的团队。你似乎是一个非常坚固、冷静地站在这两者之上的人。但我很想知道，到目前为止的历史中，这些对你来说痛苦、艰难的部分是什么，无论是团队还是资产。

Matt ： 老实说，资产对我来说更容易，因为那只是一个数字。 我认为，当你对比特币或广义的 Crypto 货币的信念具有清晰的长期性时，波动性就少得多。 如果你看看我们对比特币或Crypto 货币的信念的潜在波动性，肯定会有起伏，但其幅度远小于价格。相比之下，这比较容易。

组织效应和人员效应要困难得多。你可以在整个Crypto 货币领域看到这一点，当Crypto 货币火热并且出现在新闻中时，是招聘人员在所有角色中，无论是公司还是Paradigm ，最容易的时候。如果你考虑选择函数，它也是那些可能出于错误原因进入的人，或者可能并不真正相信Crypto 货币的10 年时间范围，但今天这是热门的东西。因此，在波动时期，这造成了很多动荡。所以，我们一直有点倾向于这种方式，但今天更是如此，我们非常专注于锁定那些真正理解它并且长期参与的人。

Patrick ： 你经历的最大峰值到谷值的回撤是多少？

Matt ： 我不知道。

Patrick ： 你知道是什么时候吗，如果不是百分比的话？

Matt ： 是什么时候，肯定是在2022-2023 年之后。

Patrick ： 说说那段时间的情况。 what happened?你不得不做什么？你感到措手不及吗？还是说，你知道，我已经经历了五次……

Matt ： 在公开资产方面，我们的思维方式是点对点的，所以我们的关注点较少在中间的波动上。 所以，我们的大部分关注点是，这显然会影响整个私人投资组合 —— 这些公司的跑道、融资能力、员工士气、收入等。 所以，我们的大部分关注点是进行分类，以确保这些Crypto 货币中的其他公司能够生存下来。

然后，我们对2021 年进行了大量的反思，因为，从广义上讲，无论是Crypto 货币还是科技领域，那都是一个非常不寻常的时期。所以，醒来后基本上是2022-2023 年，我们在2021 年做出的许多决定都不适合我们对未来五到十年的预期。

Patrick ： 如果我试图找出对Paradigm 的最佳批评，你认为会是什么？你会认为什么样的批评，当有人说出来时，你会想： “ 哦，该死”—— 这真的会击中要害。

Matt ： 我认为拥有一个深度技术、非常注重建设和研究的团队的权衡是，我们本质上对比特币的技术未来有强烈的看法。如果你想想理想化的投资者版本，那将是更加不可知论的。这是一个我们总是必须权衡的有意识的权衡。但我认为，对Paradigm 的一个合理的批评是，有时我们太依赖于我们的技术观点了。

Patrick ： 在Paradigm 的历史上，最糟糕的事情是什么？

Matt ：最明显的是我们投资了FTX 。 我实际上不知道关于SBF 的正确结论是什么。他是一个独特且与众不同的个体，但许多伟大的创始人也是如此。另一个问题是，我们确实发现了最终成为问题的核心问题，即做市商和交易所之间的关联方性质。

我们实际上在尽职调查中深入研究了这一点，并最终被欺骗了。 所以，我认为当一个创始人愿意这样做时，风险投资是非常困难的，因为整个生态系统依赖于信任，很难去尽职调查谎言。我们没有理由认为他在撒谎。

Patrick ： 那是Paradigm 历史上对你个人压力最大的时候吗？你看起来相当冷静，但……

Matt ： 是的，可能是在最初的几天里，当时我们还不完全知道发生了什么。

08 「不可读性」作为一种投资优势

Patrick ： 也许我们可以详细探讨一下“ 可读性” 这个概念，以及你对比特币的看法和投资机会之间的关系。我知道你已经思考了很多。让我们了解一下你的想法。为什么这个话题很有趣？你所说的“ 可读性” 是什么意思？它与投资机会有什么关系？

Matt ：我认为一个领域越不可读，即越难被他人理解，潜在回报就越有可能呈反比关系。 因为几乎可以肯定的是， 一个领域越被理解，就越（容易）被定价，换句话说，一切都应该被考虑进去。

硅谷是一个有趣的案例研究，因为它总是某种前沿领域。 但在某些方面，硅谷的生态系统也变得越来越可读。 曾经是量身定制的东西现在有点像工厂化了。 我认为目前人工智能的前沿领域仍然非常不可读，这是一个对建设者和投资者来说非常有趣的空间。 软件即服务（ SaaS ）不再不可读了。也许像Tiger 和Coatue 这样的公司对SaaS 估值的完美定价正是预期的结果。

我认为可读性有很强的引力。或者换句话说， 使事物可读不可避免地会降低准确性。 所以，有一种观点是地图与领土的关系。 我们创造了可读的解释来更好地理解事物，更好地传达和传播想法，但它们总是对现实的完整纹理的近似。

我认为在加密货币领域， 尤其是现在，有一种强烈的诱惑，那就是过早地使其变得可读。 我认为在某些情况下， 有一些价值在于容忍不可读性。 例如，很多人都在问， Crypto 货币的用例是什么？首先，我认为我们可以达到这一点。但金钱和金融是显而易见的。但很多人想知道，那之后呢？

我认为有一个诱惑，就是“Web3” 这个术语，我认为它在某种程度上是有用的，因为它是一个类比，帮助技术人员理解Crypto 货币可能是什么， 但它也引入了很多错误的比较。 所以，如果你在Crypto 货币领域建设，并且过于认真地对待这个可读的迷因，那么你实际上可能会构建一些非常错误的东西，因为你误解了可能的底层复杂性。

Patrick ：这让我想起了…… 作者叫什么名字……James Scott 或者类似的名字—— 那本《国家的视角》的书。

Matt ： 一点没错。

Patrick ： 我对那本书的记忆是， 自上而下的欲望使某件事情变得可理解，从而扭曲了事物。所以你把树种得整整齐齐。第一代树很好，但有机森林中发生的所有复杂性都消失了。 第二代树无法生长。通过过度简化那些本不应被简化的东西，你失去了复杂性。

或者甚至是城市布局的方式。它们应该自下而上地有机生长，还是应该被自上而下地设计？很难通过自上而下的方式设计出一个伟大的系统，这是这本书的一个重要观点。你认为这本书的观点在你的思考中占有一席之地吗？

Matt ： 完全同意。 也许这本书的现代版本是看到一个 meme 。 生态系统选择那些非常简单的meme ，因为简单的meme 可以聚集大量的力量和能量并传播。 你基本上每天都能在推特上看到当前的话题，人们就更高维度的 meme 进行争论，而这些meme 导致人们对彼此的真正意图产生误解。 但没有meme ，你实际上无法展开讨论。在这里，不清楚到底该怎么做，但在投资领域也发生了同样的事情。 彼得 · 蒂尔（ Peter Thiel ）讨厌流行语。一旦一个生态系统有了流行语，就赶紧跑。

Patrick ： 停止。太晚了。

Matt ： Moritz 说过， “ 寻找那只有趣的、复杂的鸟，而不是寻找一群鸟。 ” 我认为他们都在试图表达这个观点：异常值是独特的。如果你通过meme 来投资，你实际上就失去了所有底层的纹理和复杂性。

Patrick ： 这是否也体现了对“ 产品选择性” 的一种欣赏，即世界往往通过现有市场的镜头来解释可能的产品，而不欣赏一种新的产品或平台技术只是创造了我们无法想象的东西，而大部分回报来自于这种无法想象的部分？这是否是不可读的东西可能产生更好回报的原因？

Matt ： 我认为一些最基础的平台，这些能够产生生成性异常结果的东西，在开始时是最不可读的。我认为互联网就是一个例子。 今天，每个人都认为互联网是理所当然的。但如果你想想，即使是谷歌的想法，它的推销词是 “ 这有助于你搜索互联网，但互联网是干什么用的呢？ ”

嗯，谷歌是互联网的一个用例。这里有一个循环引用。而且事实证明，随着时间的推移，越来越多的东西出现在互联网上并变得非常有用。

09 加密资产定位、金融体系的重构，以及与AI 的交集

Patrick ： 让我们将这个话题应用到今天。用你的话来描述一下你对比特币的看法，让那些不关注它的人也能理解。

Matt ： 所以，我认为比特币是一种非常基础的人类协调方式的变化。

Patrick ： “ 基础” 是什么意思？

Matt ： 基础的意思是，这是一种非常基本的构建块。在建筑的底层发生的变化。在历史上，我们总是通过集中的机构来协调，公司、政府、货币体系。而比特币使我们能够以去中心化的方式进行协调。

我认为事实证明， 这种协调方式最有价值的应用是货币。 我认为比特币正在经历三个大致的阶段。 首先是作为一种货币，其次是作为一种金融体系，第三，作为一种互联网平台。 我认为它在前两个方面越来越清晰。作为一种货币，作为一种金融体系是有用的。我认为互联网平台可能是目前最不可读的部分。

但在货币方面， 我认为比特币是过去 15 年来最有价值的创业公司。 除了大多数人不认为它是一家创业公司，因为它竞争的是一个非常不寻常的市场—— 货币市场。它没有传统的公司结构、团队或CEO 。但如果你退后一步想想，我认为这是一个相当了不起的事实，即在一个全新的工业组织中，中本聪（ Satoshi ）发布了一份九页的白皮书，编写了一些初始代码，然后整个生态系统围绕它发展起来，现在价值数万亿美元。

它不仅是最有价值的创业公司。我认为如果我们在2018 年的Paradigm 说，国家会讨论甚至采用比特币作为国库储备，我们会认为你疯了。我们当时认为这可能在10 到15 年后实现。所以，说实话，我对比特币作为一种货币资产的合法性增长感到非常惊讶。这不仅是在政府层面，也在机构层面。我认为2017 年时， Larry Fink （贝莱德创始人）称比特币是洗钱的指数，而现在他每个月都会在CNBC 上谈论它是未来，它是数字黄金。

Jerome Powell （现任美联储主席）在上个月的一次会议上被问及他们是否会采用比特币，或者它是否对美元构成威胁。他说不，它对美元没有威胁，它只是数字黄金。即使是数字黄金的认可，我认为五年前也是非常反传统的。如果你考虑任何新的货币资产的采用，这是一个建立接受度和合法性的过程，这才是真正的KPI 。价格是这个过程的输出，但主要的输入是相信这可能是可能的人的数量。

Patrick ： 让我们再花几分钟谈谈比特币作为一种货币。为什么这很重要或有趣？它现在的市值大概是…… ？

Matt ： 略低于2 万亿美元。

Patrick ： 所以，假设它在某种程度上是世界上最大的公司之一。但作为一种货币，它感觉像是…… 如果把它和亚马逊、谷歌、微软和其他数万亿美元的资产放在一起， 它可能是最受诟病的。 它没有像比特币的创造者中本聪这样的杰出支持者，一路上也有一些可疑的角色。它为什么有价值或有趣？从你的角度来看，这是一个基本问题，但似乎很重要，我想听听你的答案。

Matt ： 我认为一种非主权货币的想法是有价值的。 我不是那种认为 Crypto 货币或比特币应该取代所有法定货币的人。我认为它们实际上可以很好地共存，稳定币的兴起就是一个很好的例子。

但比特币不仅仅是一种对冲工具。它还可以帮助个人和家庭在地球上最不安全的地方保值。你看到，无论是逃离乌克兰还是委内瑞拉或其他处于困境中的国家的人， Crypto 货币已经开始在其中发挥更大的作用。所以，我认为，从人道主义的角度来看，这是一种非常有价值的工具。黄金曾经解决了部分问题。但黄金是物理的、笨重的、不方便的。有很多理由说明数字版本是更好的。

Patrick ： 你认为它是一种货币还是仅仅是一种价值储存手段？或者货币意味着一种交换手段、一种计价单位和一种价值储存手段。

Matt ： 我认为目前它主要是一种价值储存手段，或者更准确地说，是对未来价值储存手段的一种押注。我认为随着时间的推移，它可能会找到一些交易用途，但我不认为这是必要的，以便它变得真正有用和有趣。

Patrick ： 你认为像鲍威尔和芬克这样的机构对比特币作为数字黄金的理解是极度可读的， 因此比特币本身相对于其他选择的潜在回报相当低？ 它在某种意义上已经赢了。

Matt ： 它已经在某种程度上赢得了胜利，这超出了我几年前的预期。

但我认为我们仍然处于这种真正被理解的早期阶段，尽管围绕它有一些评论。思考比特币采用的一个粗略方式是，全球有多少人，按美元金额加权，认为他们应该拥有比特币。然后还有另一个轴，即他们投资组合中有多少比例是比特币。

我认为我们正处于一个节点，许多机构开始认为，也许我们应该从零开始。也许是1% 到2% 到5% 。甚至富达也在推荐包含这种权重的篮子。我不认为我们会达到或应该达到人们普遍持有100% 比特币的程度。但我认为这将比我们今天所处的位置要高得多。

Patrick ： 那么，让我们进入第二个篮子。我认为“ 可编程金融体系” 是使用的术语。那么，比特币现在还很年轻，但相对成熟，大多数人对比特币的可读概念是数字黄金之类的。那么，关于第二阶段的新金融体系，这个故事我们处于哪里，今天有什么可能，什么让你兴奋？然后我们可以去最不可读的前沿部分。

Matt ： 我认为稳定币的一个显著之处在于，它们主要是与美元挂钩的代币，它们存在于区块链上，但与美元挂钩。我认为在过去几年中，稳定币的增长已经超过了2000 亿美元，并且它们开始被用于现实的用例，而不仅仅是Crypto 货币领域。

它们最初被构想为一种促进Crypto 货币交易的方式。这是你在国外某些交易所上岸和离岸美元的方式。但现在像SpaceX 这样的公司开始使用稳定币来转移资金，还有很多其他公司会将这种企业财务用例用于稳定币，他们会在某个国家产生收入，比如在非洲或拉丁美洲，然后他们希望将这些美元汇回美国，因此他们会在当地交易所将当地货币兑换成稳定币，然后他们就可以通过区块链发送这些稳定币。这最终是一种比传统方式更便宜的外汇交易方式。

Patrick ： 是的，稳定币非常有趣，因为它是一个完美的对照实验。它是一种美元，它的目的不是取代或优于美元，或者超越美元。它只是一种美元。所以从某种纯粹意义上说，它真正是技术部分，可编程性等等。那么，现在我们已经抽象掉了价格考虑，这些技术的核心特征是什么？它们为什么如此重要？稳定币的行业结构是什么样的？

Matt ： 它是一个24/7 全球化且可编程的支付轨道。我认为这些是相当关键的。我认为我们生活在一个互联网24/7 的世界里，但支付系统却在周末关闭。所以从某种意义上说，这仅仅是使金融和支付现代化的方式，就像我们已经习惯了互联网一样。

许多金融科技的创新实际上是在过时的后端基础上的产品和市场创新。你可以将Crypto 货币视为从头开始构建的一个新的金融后端。我认为看待可编程金融体系或对其进行框架的一种方式是，它是一个资产和程序之间的双边市场。

所以，我们通过传统机构或通过应用程序进行的每一次金融活动都是一种程序。有一些逻辑来决定谁付钱给谁。也许有一个托管，也许有一个支付条件。想想保险、抵押贷款或工资支付。所有这些本质上都是在传统金融之上加上编程的支付方式。所有这些都可以在新的Crypto 轨道上构建。

但存在一个引导问题，因为大多数人不信任这些轨道，也不使用这些轨道。那里没有很多资产。因此，存在资产和程序之间的引导问题。我认为稳定币的有趣之处在于，我们已经在引导Crypto 原生货币，如比特币、以太坊、 Solana 。

有了稳定币，我们现在有了一个非常广泛使用的货币资产，正如你所说，没有Crypto 货币的波动性或复杂性。我认为，我们第一次开始看到人们构建所有这些不同的方式来编程和使用它们。我认为， 10 年、 20 年、 30 年后，似乎不可避免的是，基本上我们所有的金融交易将以某种方式通过这样的轨道进行。

Patrick ： 你有没有看到稳定币被创造性地使用的例子，这些在传统金融中是不可能的？

Matt ： 我认为一个最近且相关的例子是预测市场平台（ polymarket 等），这些是这样的合约，你存入X 美元，如果X 人赢得选举，而你押注了那个人，你就会得到报酬。如果另一个人赢得选举，你就得不到报酬。这种逻辑在智能合约中得到体现。有一种基于Crypto 的方式可以解决这个事件。所以这是一个以前不可能实现的例子。

Patrick ： 它根据结果自动结算。

Matt ： 是的。

Patrick ： 如果我们进入第三档。你觉得今天Crypto 货币中最边缘的部分是什么？现在每个人对比特币都有所了解，很多人也听说过稳定币，尤其是像你们这样的听众。那么，你认为大多数人可能没有听说过或没有使用过，但你感兴趣的是什么？

Matt ：我认为一个非常有趣且仍然非常模糊的前沿领域是人工智能和Crypto 货币的交叉。 如果人工智能是智能，那么Crypto 货币是一种协调智能的方式。而这实际上就是货币的本质。它是一种价值的数据库，我们将其转移。这就是资本主义的协调机制。

对我来说，很难想象如果人工智能Agent 真正兴起并成为可能，它们主要通过传统系统进行交易。 Crypto 货币基本上是为计算机智能体使用而量身定制的。 我认为现在很多人关注的只是代理之间支付或在网络上支付的想法。

但我认为一个更有趣的步骤是， 你可以将 Crypto 货币视为构建市场的方式， 让参与者可以通过纯粹的程序化手段参与其中。如果你想要运行某种拍卖或通过程序化手段分配稀缺资源， Crypto 货币就是为此而生的。因此，我设想了一个世界，在这个世界中，人工智能代理基本上正在构建更复杂的方式，以相互协调，而不仅仅是支付。

Patrick ： 当看到像人工智能这样的东西时，你已经建立了一个使命是推动Crypto 货币前沿的公司，你怎么权衡这种诱惑： “ 哇，这是一个新的使能技术，一种通用技术。也许我们人类历史上只有25 种这样的技术。这里有一个新的。也许这个比我现在正在做的事情更大，不想一头扎进最大的通用技术中吗？ ” 这是你考虑过的问题吗？

Matt ： 首先，我们有一个以好奇心为驱动的团队。我们团队的一部分是每个人都可以花时间去研究和探索他们感兴趣的东西。我们确实有一些人对比特币非常感兴趣。

我们实际上花了一些时间去探索这个兔子洞，最终决定，好吧，首先，我们当然对比特币和人工智能的交叉领域感兴趣。我认为现在可能是这个领域最有趣的时期之一。但同时，我认为在专业化方面存在极端的回报，而且也有这样一种感觉，即比特币是每个人都在研究的东西，它无论如何都会发展得很好，即使没有我们。

我认为Crypto 货币是一种非常重要的技术，需要与比特币共存。正如你所说，没有太多伟大的倡导者，我们相信它非常重要，我们需要努力让它真正实现。

Patrick ： 你能从你对比特币的研究中给出你的观点吗，将其与其他你研究过的历史技术基础设施建设进行比较，以及这种繁荣和萧条的性质？我在想Carlota Perez （注：经济